Gris, a platform-adventure game that represents moving through thefive stages of grief, has tons of accolades to its name. These include, but are not limited to, best character animation in a video game at the 46th Annie Awards, best contemporary art direction at the National Academy of Video Game Trade Reviewers Awards, best visual arts at the 19th Game Developer Choice Awards, best indie game at the Italian Video Game Awards, best visual design at the 19th Webby Awards, best gameplay at the Games for Change Awards, best art at the Titanium Awards, and Game for Impact at The Game Awards 2019. Now, its developer Nomada Studio is just weeks away from releasing its next title,Neva.
Nevais about the parent-child relationship as demonstrated through the player character Alba and the titular wolf, particularly as the latter grows throughout the game. In Barcelona, Spain, Game Rant spoke with the Nomada Studio founders (Adrián Cuevas, Conrad Roset, and Roger Mendoza) about the making of this title, how it differs from Neva, the challenges they face, and the pressure that comes in following agame likeGris.The following transcript has been edited for clarity and brevity.
Adrián Cuevas, Technical Director
Q: Could you give a little overview on what you do and how Nomada came together?
A: I’m Adrian Cuevas. I’m one of the founders of the studio. I’ve known Roger for a long time. We studied together in Barcelona, and we worked together inUbisoft Montreal. We worked together in Ubisoft Barcelona. When we founded the studio, it was because we were at a party when I was going to Ubisoft Montreal to work for a few months. There, I met Conrad through this girl who was celebrating her birthday. Yeah, that’s how I met him. We are very good friends, and, yeah, right now I’m a technical director and one of the producers of Nomada, Gris, and Neva.
Q: One of the reasons why we’re here in Barcelona is to see the neighborhood and some of the things here that have inspired all of you. This being your home and all that. I was curious how this sort of influence changes how you approach a game, maybe versus your time at Ubisoft?
A: Well, I guess it’s really the vibe of the city. I think, for Barcelona, the art is a very powerful thing. You can see it in the architecture, but you can see it also in the theater. There’s a really powerful entertaining media presence here in illustrations and museums, particularly in this neighborhood. If you had a chance to come just one month before, they have the festivities of Gracia. In the festivities of Gracia, the whole neighborhood decorates the streets, and they decorate it usually with either some movie references or other country references. I remember this year, for example, three weeks ago, there was this street full of statues of Ghibli, so you haveTotoro, you have a lot of references. It was beautiful, so I guess this neighborhood in particular is like a very vibrant community related to art. A lot of artists that come to Barcelona try to live in this neighborhood. It’s a very popular neighborhood.
Q: As a technical director, how do you take something like that and manifest it into a game?
A: I guess it’s more like an indirect way, an approach to any kind of media. I think it changes how we approach video games, like we feel like video games are a form of art, and we want to make them like that. It’s not like you’re not going to see Sagrada Familia in video games. It’s more like we thinkvideo games have to be seen as an art form, and we work on that approach. Conrad probably will have more references specifically about some specific construction or something like that, but I think for us, it’s more about how we approach the game, that we want to start the video game from the art and the narrative and then move forward with it. You know, music, artists, everybody starts at the beginning when we are creating the story and the narrative. We all work together from the beginning to create the game. That’s what I think inspires us the most: how we work.
Q: You mentioned on stage earlier that, after Gris, you had taken like an 8-month break before diving into Neva. I was curious, what made Neva the concept that had you ready to leave your break?
A: We wanted to pursueNeva because we wanted to make an evolution of Gris, so Gris for us, was like an entry point for a lot of gamers in the game industry. We knew that the art style could attract a lot of people that maybe never played video games. We wanted to make an experience for them where they could just have an easy interaction with video games. And at the same time, we wanted to make it entertaining for people who already play video games with Neva.
We wanted to take this step up by trying to bring another, let’s say, aspect of video games, to the table. We have this combat system, and it’s very simple. It’s just something that adds to the feel, not very frustrating and smooth. In any case, we have a story mode, just in case someone finds it too challenging, but that’s what we wanted to bring to the table, game-wise.
Narrative-wise, we wanted to tell another impactful story. Conrad just had a kid, Roger also had a kid, and they wanted to talk about this relationship and how it changes over time, as kids grow.
Q: Touching on the story element, Gris worked through the five stages of grief, and I noticed on the website there were five key highlights: love, identity, trust, courage, and growth. Can you talk a little bit about how those are tied into the story?
A: When we were developing the game, we looked at a lot of theories about growth. To be honest, when we were checking, there were a lot of different ones. Some people were saying that there would be seven stages or something, five or four. We found that we could try to just do it within our thesis of four, and we related those to the seasons. That’s why we have summer, autumn, etc.
For us, each season represents a stage in the life of Neva. At the beginning is summer, when we think everything is happy. Everything is good, you know? Summer, we think, is amazing, has good weather, and people are usually on holiday. Especially when you are a kid, that’s usually the case. You don’t worry about anything, so we’re relating it that way.
Then when it’s autumn, she’s a teenager. The art style of the second chapter has a lot of reds and yellows. It’s a bit more aggressive in a way like Neva is because she’s a bit more of a rebel. She just wants to bite things and doesn’t care about you. As you progress, you will see how she grows.
In the winter, for example, it’s a much more mature, relaxed experience. you’re able to see she has grown, so we try to relate it in that way. Spring, I’m not going to say much because it’s at the end of the story, but we see that progress in how it relates to these stages, this progression of growth and seasons.
Q: Similar to that but unlike Gris, Neva has combat. What was the biggest technical challenge you had to deal with when you’re going from a game that doesn’t have combat to one that does?
A: It was a nightmare. It really is, not just because of the AI for combat, but also for the companion. They are completely different AIs, and we have one guy for each. We have one guy doing AI for the enemies, and we have another guy basically doing behavior and navigation for Neva, who is completely dedicated to it. It was a hard challenge, especially when it comes to balancing the difficulty or balancing the behavior of Neva. If you make her too responsive or if she responds too fast, she’ll feel like a robot. But if she doesn’t respond fast enough, it might feel more natural, but it can frustrate players, like Last Guardian, for example. We all rememberLast Guardian and Trico, which is a big inspiration. I didn’t want to have to call them three times every time. It feels natural, but sometimes too natural, you know?
We tried to avoid that frustration. I’m sure we are not going to achieve the majesty that they did with Trico. It was amazing, but balancing that out was hard. Technically, in the end, it was a step forward in creating Neva, creating these AIs that have to be slightly clever, but we hired some people who were working on that before and helped us with all this development.
Q: With how Neva acted, it sometimes felt like I was playing co-op. When you’re talking about this AI and this balance, how does nailing that sort of “game feel” come in? Was me feeling like it’s almost co-op in nature intentional or just a byproduct? Or is that just me?
A: Yes, definitely, especially because you still have to play another half of the game or so. But at the beginning, you see that Neva doesn’t bring you much in combat. She’s basically the opposite. You have to be worried about her the second she starts helping you. She is then an independent being that helps you with combat, and basically, then you will feel like you are fighting together as one. This evolution is exactly that; she feels like there’s someone else helping you with the combat. That’s what we wanted to do. It will change a little bit later on, and it will feel like slightly different.
Q: Everyone loves petting animals in games so I was curious if that was something you knew on day one you were going to add or is it just because people love that feature?
A:As soon as we knew she was going to be a wolf, we knew we’d need to have petting. It had to be there. When we were showing it to Devolver, that was the first thing everybody asked, “Am I going to be able to pet the wolf at any point?” You can do it at any time, and people go crazy with it. Sometimes they just stay there and press it for seconds upon seconds upon seconds. Yeah, we knew we needed it as soon as we decided that. And players can do it anytime, whenever they want or whenever she does something nice or helps you.
Q: We have Neva and Alba, but obviously there’s this focus on Neva’s growth. I’m curious about the naming convention. For example, why is it not Alba? Why is it Neva?
A:Yeah, for me, the main character is Neva. Even though you play the sidekick, you play Alba, Neva is the protagonist of the game. The game is about how she grows and about how her relationship with you changes, but we want you to experience a parent’s perspective, probably because we relate more with that at our age than with the perspective of the kid. That’s what we wanted to do from Alba’s perspective, but for me, the main character is Neva.
Q: On a similar topic, Gris means gray in Spanish, and Neva means like snow associated with purity and tranquility. Was there any sort of goal with that contrast?
A: For Gris, we knew from the beginning it was going to be called that because Gris was all about colors and what those colors mean. Gris fits perfectly for its story, this progression of moods, of how you are not always happy and you’re not always down. Gris, you go through all the stages of Greif.
Neva, apart from the relationship with the wolf, is first of all white. Also, it’s a force of nature, you know, it’s something within nature. In Neva, we also talk about the relationship of the parent, the problems in the world, and the corruption that could come to the world. It’s more metaphorical, but we think about climate change, wars, and all these kinds of problems that are in the world. We link it with nature, so for us, it was trying to find that name that fits with the character, this white, beautiful wolf, and pure nature. With the nature topic, being part of an environment, that’s how we found Neva. We thought it fits perfectly.
Q: Is there anything you’re hoping players walk away with once they’ve beaten Neva?
A:Well, I think it was easier to answer this question for Gris because our main worry was people not connecting with the game because it was so metaphorical that it was hard to know if somebody was going to connect. With Neva, I really hope that, at least, they are entertained and are moved a little bit by Neva and her story with Alba.
I’m pretty sure you’ve already made quite a few people cry.
I mean, I hope so in a way, but honestly, that’s what we want. You want any kind of media to affect the consumer in any way, even if it just makes you cry, makes you happy, or makes you think. Any of these three things, if we could provoke any of these three things in the player, it would be perfect, but at least they have to have fun and enjoy it. I hope that they finish the game and say it was good. Maybe some won’t feel anything, but if they at least feel it was good and it was fun, I will be happy. The best is if they can enjoy it and say, “Oh yeah, I remember when I had this dog or this reminds me of my kids.”
This interview was done with the aid of a translator.
Q: You mentioned having a child being a major influence for this game. Can you speak a little more to how that relates to Neva, both the game and the wolf?
A:Neva is the result of two things. There was the context of the lockdown, plus the fact that he had a two-year-old son. These two things were the engine of the creation of Neva.
Neva is a metaphor of the relationship between father or mother and children at the end of the day. When he was writing the narrative and he was organizing it in these four chapters, he was always thinking ofthe interaction with a child. You first protect them, then there’s this rebellion of adolescence, going against parents, and then you’re getting back to the parents.
Q: Alongside that, we’re here in Barcelona because it and the Gracia neighborhood influenced your approach to the game a bit. Can you speak to how those manifest as influences in the game?
A:Barcelona and this neighborhood are important for their studio, but it’s no so much the neighborhood as it is in the people. He was surrounded by painters, musicians, and other artists for a long time, from the time he was 24 to 34. He created this ecosystem with other artists, and that period is very important professionally. That’s when you are the most powerful, when you’re growing professionally. He got surrounded by these very experienced people who influenced him a lot.
Q: Do the relationships in that ecosystem affect the relationship between Alba and Neva in any way?
A:No, it’s more about the esthetics, the way of working and approaching the project, sharing thesame artistic referenceswith these people, but there’s nothing specific in the relationship in Neva.
Q: What’s the process like taking these inspirations and turning them into a game?
A:Lots of storyboards and lots of notebooks. The storyboards for him are like the Bible. Obviously, there’s working on a lot of concepts and the characters with the art team, but the main thing is using the storyboard.
Q: During the presentation earlier, you talked about how concepts get turned into basic levels and then those levels are recreating with you hand-drawing them. It seems like a really intensive process. How long does it take to make, as an example, just one level?
A:Keep in mind everything is done in parallel, but maybe three months for the concepts for one chapter and three-to-four months forthe level design. Then he redraws all the designs, and that takes an extra month and a half or so. However, concepts and level design are being worked on at the same time.
Q: When you’re at the drawing phase, do things ever change last minute because it’s done in parallel? How do you know to account for earthquakes or other mechanics that might be developed in parallel?
A:The main job that he had was to talk with the designer, who takes care of the mechanics. For the first year and a half, they were constantly talking, getting feedback, and discussing mechanics.
Q: Gris works through the five stages of grief, whereas Neva is about growth. Are there are connections there?
A:He thought about linking the two things for a long time, but he never did in the end. Both talk about real vital moments in someone’s lives, the birth of a child or overcoming mourning. So they’re sort of related, but they’re not linked together.
Q: How did you approach designing the enemies?
A:Yeah, he tried to give the enemies this personality of being like an entity that destroys the world. From this basic idea, he started developing their concepts.
Q: Is there anything artistically you hope players walk away with after they’ve played Neva?
A:Well, artistically, they will get a very cool and surprising experience at some moments. Emotionally, his aim is for players to feel feelings, to trigger their emotions.
Q: To kick things off, can you talk a little bit about what it’s like making a game that is, to some degree, influenced and inspired by your home?
A:It’s a privilege to be able to be here in many ways. We have a lot of friends, Conrad draws inspiration from Gaudi. It’s the culture we try to convey. All of our names for games, at least so far, are in Catalan and Spanish which is the languages that we have here. Conrad is no longer in the Gracia neighborhood, he moved away, but right at the beginning for Gris, we used to come together in one of the little bars and just talk and chat about the game. It’s fun. It’s also fun that, nowadays, there’s a big ecosystem for games in Barcelona. It has grown quite a bit recently, and I think that helps when getting inspiration because it allows us to talk to so many different people.
Q: You previously worked as an animator on some of the Assassin’s Creed games. How does working on more intimate games like Neva differ from those, presumably, more research-heavy projects?
A:The thing is, when I was at Ubisoft, I wasn’t involved in that part of the research. The thing about AAA, at least in my experience, is that you are this little cog, one small thing is your world, and you don’t go outside that world. In my case, for example, it was the animals. I was the animal guy, and I barely knew what happened in other parts of the project really. At the end of the day, it’s 800 people, different time zones, and it’s impossible to do anything but stick to your thing. I think this is much more special. The three of us started this game from scratch. All three of us are able to influence the game directly. That’s not to say anything against Ubisoft or AAA because I learned a lot there as well and met some super cool people, but it came to a time where I was looking to do something smaller and more personal.
Q: Is there anything around here, around the neighborhood or Bercelona, you’d cite as a specific inspiration?
A:No, not a specific one. There’s Gaudi, who is a famous architect in Barcelona, and different places like Park Guell.I think I would say it’s more general, more community, and more architecture than on one specific place.
Q: With Neva, we have combat and two characters this time around. How has this project developed differently from Gris so far?
A:It’s bigger than Gris, for sure. Gris only had one character, and it was also shorter around 2-3 hours. Now we have two characters, we have combat and enemies, and it’s about 4-5 hours. It’s a bigger challenge, and there’s been about four years of development. On the programming side, there was a lot of interesting challenges. Making sure Neva feels alive but also that you need to take care of her, but it can’t be too constant or you might resent her. We needed to make sure you didn’t get annoyed with her.
That was important, especially at the beginning with the combat. We haven’t worked on combat before. We did hire a combat designer at the beginning of development who helped us a little bit, the basis of what the combat should be, some of the enemies, and from there, it’s been really fun becauseDevolveralso allows us to take all the time we need. There were times in the project that we were not very happy with how it was turning out, and Devolver said, “if you need to wait another year, wait another year. Just make sure you’re happy with what we ship.” That really helped with a lot of iteration, a lot of polish, and now we’re finally here. It’s been a long journey.
Q: Neva’s AI was very impressive, how independent and effective she felt. It almost had a sort of co-op feel to her. How difficult was it trying to make her AI work like? How many iterations?
A:It’s difficult to say. I know for sure that we had some version of the game that didn’t work out at one point, and you didn’t feel any connection with Neva. That was obviously a big issue. How we usually work is we do one level, usually it’s way too long, and then we start cutting things up. We start iterating, and I think we did like four or five iterations for each level, just to make sure that all the basics feel good, and interactions with Neva would feel good. Something was lacking. Maybe we added more interactions here or maybe more animations, which always helps make a character feel alive. I don’t know exactly the amount, but there was a lot especially with Neva because, as I was saying, you want to connect with her, but you don’t want her to be too independent. Well, depends on the chapter because her behavior changes.There was a lot of tweaking.
Q: I can imagine the question you get asked most is if you can pet the wolf. It was one of the first things I tried to do in the game, but I was curious if you could talk a bit about incorporating that feature and the importance behind such an animation?
A: Well, I mean, everyone expects it nowadays, but when you see people playing, you see they actually pet the wolf a lot, which I think is great. It’s something we’re looking for because it creates this bond, so having the option to do that at any time and at any size, because Neva grows, was key. It actually took us a while to put it in the game. We were focusing on the other stuff first, like the small interactions, and it was standard to add petting because having the option to pet at any time is super rewarding, especially when you see the happy player and everything.
Q: Adrian was telling me that, in his mind, Neva is the protagonist. The game is named after her, after all, and not Alba. What’s the process in making a playable character but also putting the focus on an NPC?
A:It was a bit of a challenge. A lot of games, which makes sense, evolve the character you’re controlling and that’s what keeps things fresh. We don’t do that. The moveset of Alba is the same the whole game, and it never brings new things to the table. That was complicated because it’s always cool when you unlock any new ability, so what we had to do for that is bring new gameplay elements in through Neva but also the world itself. Each world has its own theme that brings new gameplay opportunities, and that’s how we keep Neva fresh because somethng new is always happening.
Q: On stage, you called it Gris with a sword. What about Neva necessitated combat?
A:For us, it was a good way to convey that feeling of protection, the fact that Neva starts a cub. You’re protecting her from enemies. On top of that, we wanted to add more gameplay than we had in Gris to keep the game refreshing, to also make it different from Gris, so combat sounded like a fun challenge. It also fit into theme of the game, especially with how Neva grows. As she gets older, bigger, she takes part in more of the combat, so it just fit together nicely.
Q: There’s a lot of similar DNA with Gris, but what do you think was the most unique challenge making Neva compared to Gris?
A:Talking personally and not as a message from Nomada, just my opinion, there was a lot of pressure atthe beginning of Neva. Gris, thank God, went really well, but that also adds a little pressure and expectations. You think about this stuff a lot and people are expecting certain things, but if we want to do something else, what if they don’t like it? At the end of the day, we decided to do what we did with Gris, which was to make a game that we’re happy with and proud of. I would have loved playing Gris for the first time, not having worked on it. It’s the same with Neva. I would loved to be at home, never having worked on Neva and playing it. The thing we do is ship a game we’re proud of.
Q: After beating Neva, what do you hope players take from the game?
A:I hope they come away with a really fun, well-rounded experience, and that they enjoy the game. Usually, where games like Neva are very abstract, this one is a bit less because the parenthood theme is very clear, but there are some subtle hints here and there about the backstory and everything. I think it’s fun when people can relate to that and come up with their own story. There’s no wrong answer. If they are able to enjoy the game, relate to it, and have a good time, then I call it a success.
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